A hypothetical question

Suppose that Get Your Own Back returns for a series of 20 episodes. 19 of these feature a super-attractive 18-25 year old woman (I mean really, really, gorgeous) against a man. In every single one of these episodes the hottie avoids the gunge. In the remaining one episode, a 45-year-old woman of average attractiveness gets gunged.

About TG

Hunter of WAM media, author of WAM fiction, founder and administrator of the independent and community-led blog https://tellygunge.wordpress.com/
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33 Responses to A hypothetical question

  1. Henry Lee says:

    I voted ‘no’ on the assumption that I’d be watching these episodes not knowing the outcome which would be absolute torture.

    Anything in particular prompt this question?

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    • A lingering bitterness that GYOB’s reputation as one of the shows that inspired WAM fetishes within a certain generation of Brits didn’t actually gunge as many women as it could have, I’m guessing? :L

      I voted no as well, for exactly the same reasons.

      Like

    • TG says:

      I find it an interesting question because the rational choice is for the series to happen – that way you get a female gunging, whereas if the series doesn’t happen you get nothing. Yet the results indicate that for most people (me included), the heartache from the escapes outweighs the enjoyment of the singular gunging. Indeed, I sometimes wish the real GYOB had never happened for this reason. I wonder if economists have a term for this kind of irrational decision making.

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      • Henry Lee says:

        I’d argue it isn’t the rational decision in your example though. I think the question would be a lot more difficult to answer if the ratio of gungings was the same as the show: ~25%. I think I could live with that.

        Really, I’ve never understood the unique frustration you have for GYOB. There were gut punch escapes, but there’s no reason to think women escapes at a disproportionate rate- if only woman V men episodes were counted, I bet that there ratio would be a lot closer to 50%.

        Interested in this myself, I recently went back and watched the beginning of a bunch of dancingduade’s videos of the early series where you can see who escaped. Sure, sometimes when men went in the tank it was a gorgeous girl who escaped. But the majority of the time it was other men. Conversely, a lot of the time women were gunged while men stayed clean

        Liked by 2 people

        • TG says:

          I doubt my frustration is unique, judging by discussions here and on EC gunge (and some of your own comments in the past!). And it’s not just a matter of quantity but also quality. The period 1996-1999, when the gunge was at its best, was the period that saw almost no female dunkings, and a lot of gutting escapes by particularly young and attractive women.

          The ratio improved when the double ramp format was brought in (my theory is it largely took the matter out of the adults’ hands and thus curbed whiteknightism), but at the same time the gunge quality dropped woefully. That orange-coloured water they used in the later series doesn’t even qualify as gunge in my book. It is frustrating to think how good, for example, Sara the hairdresser’s dunking might have been if they’d used proper gunge. In terms of quality, there are few female dunkings that come close to what is commonplace on DancingDuade’s channel.

          No matter how you try to smear on the lipstick, it’s a very ugly pig from our point of view.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Henry Lee says:

            Oh, don’t get me wrong, you aren’t unique in having frustrations with GYOB, I can’t deny I feel the same, but I also feel the same about NHP and civilian finds in general. I meant that it comes across that you find GYOB uniquely frustrating, which i find strange. I spend a lot of time (too much probably) looking for civilian finds, and it strikes me that when it comes to gungings, 3 or for men for every woman is pretty much par for the course. A great example of this is DBP’s post-TV career of taking his tank to student unions, where the contestants/victims are self-selecting and again, the ratio remains stubbornly disappointing.

            It’s more a case of being realistic than smearing lipstick on a pig. Sure, an average of 1.5 women per series or whatever is awful, but compared to what today? I accept that if you didn’t like the latter series’ gunge then that will colour your view. While clearly thinner, I never had the same beef with it lot of people did, and again compared to what? Ministry of Mayhem’s coloured water? Swipe TVs goggles and obtuse camera work? The total lack of anything remotely messy on British TV? Ultimately the quality of gunge and gender ratio of a non-existent scene are a tad uninteresting!

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      • A.W. says:

        There’s a flaw to your reasoning here. You’re putting the “rational” choice as one female gunging vs. no female gungings with no other criteria. In isolation, then yes, people should be voting in favour of it, but this represents the idea of a one-off GYOB special between two people and nothing more.

        The original poll question isn’t as simple as one female gunging vs. no female gungings. It’s one female gunging + nineteen crushing disappointments vs. no female gungings, and the crushing disappointments clearly carry more weight than the one gunging does for you, hence your decision. If you put it in numbers, you could say that the female gunging is worth +1, and no female gungings at all is equal to 0. Each disappointment could then be worth as little as -0.055, but the combined sum is below 0, making it a net “loss” to the person who sees it that way…

        Out of interest, when the question refers to an “a 45-year-old woman of average attractiveness”, who are people thinking of? For me, I’m reminded of mum Karen from the last series…

        Liked by 1 person

        • That last point is a big problem I have with the question, actually. What is defined as “attractive” varies significantly between people. For instance, some people simply aren’t attracted to women between the ages of 18 and 25 and prefer the “MILF” archetype. So for them, is there really anything lost in the first nineteen episodes?

          Also, since TG put the question, are we using his definitions of “super attractive” and “really, really gorgeous” or our own? While I’m not entirely sure if he has any particular types, I know I do and said types are quite different from a lot of people on here – I’ve become “the metal guy” for good reason, after all.

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          • A.W. says:

            I’d say the only “fair” way to ask the question is for it to be someone you specifically find attractive. If TG had stated that it was a stunning redhead, or a gorgeously tanned blonde, then it might not appeal to those that specifically like blondes and blondes alone…

            Liked by 1 person

            • TG says:

              Yes, attractiveness here is gauged in the subjective judgement of the person answering the question. I should have left age out of it. There are plenty of older women that are stunning and great to gunge, and younger women are not necessarily so. I guess I had the high escape incidence of young women on the real show in mind when I framed the question.

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  2. A.W. says:

    I voted “happen”, but I’m probably in the minority here as I don’t object to male WAM…

    Plus, you know, a new series of GYOB, even with such a set of results would be a sign of WAM shows returning in general. The series after might be kinder to you, or it might inspire a return for other shows with regular messy segments…

    Liked by 1 person

    • briff1es says:

      Same here. I also admit although I think I’m part of the generation Vanilla spoke of, certainly with age I’ve become increasingly baffled by the frustration I think a portion of users here feel when a woman doesn’t get gunged on GYOB or the like. Maybe it’s the now vast quantities of easily available WAM material, that’s plenty good enough for me. A question for those I speak of: is it because those on GYOB are “reluctant” victims? Rather than paid models?

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      • Henry Lee says:

        Although I like WAM producer stuff well enough and have bought a lot of it over the years, a mainstream find will always be better. Couldn’t really tell you why, but I think the “reluctance” you mention plays into it.

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      • TG says:

        Stuff with paid models rarely interests me because there is a lack of authenticity to the experience. I look for something where the emotional significance to the woman getting messy is something greater than “another gig, another pay-cheque”. I like the nerves, the regret at having “lost”, the humiliation, and (in some cases) the eventual enjoyment. And you’re right – there’s lots of great stuff out there that caters to that, including a wealth of civilian WAM. I should just forget about GYOB and move on, but it’s hard to shake off, perhaps because it was part of my formative years as a wammer, and a lot of my frustration is remembrance of how gutted I felt at the time.

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    • thewhitelady316 says:

      I don’t mind male wam either. Some people seem to avoid it like the plague, which I think does them a bit of a disservice. Men aren’t my thing but growing up watching shows like GYOB, I could still greatly enjoy the scenario regardless of who was getting gunged. It fires the imagination, if nothing else.

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      • yuck53 says:

        And it’s still possible to get the joke although I feel that women are still better so losing a woman is always a major loss to me. Heck, I even think she’s missed out. This was a really hard question.

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  3. MCPridz says:

    I also voted no, I wouldn’t want to see a middle aged woman, unless it was a well known celebrity, and I would rather see the hot girls gunged so an easy no for me

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  4. yuck53 says:

    I voted ‘yes’ as you’d probably expect from me. I don’t really know how we’re supposed to qualify this concept of 19 ‘attractive’ escapes when such a concept is entirely subjective. To me even the worst looking female gungee is slightly better than any man especially if they have the requisite personality. Though I am starting to regret it probably for the reasons Henry has suggested but voted ‘yes’ in spite of that, I think, because I can’t really process such a concept.

    I still voted ‘yes’ for reasons like those mentioned above for the possibility of it inspiring more WAM or just a second series of GYOB which could theoretically better. That despite the fact I hate GYOB. Party due to the fact I mainly remember what I now call the ‘Land of the Giants’ sequence which consisted of oversized props and the worst of DBP’s gags. If it wasn’t for the possibility of great gungings at the end I’d have completely avoided the programme.

    I don’t think there needs to be any lack of authenticity to models getting gunged just because they’re getting paid. They’re still have the experience and as long as there not being coached (which is annoying) there’s no reason they shouldn’t express as they feel. My preference for commercial WAM is that it’s made for a broader audience than just us lot so it makes me feel part a wider viewing community instead of a niche one.

    I don’t really agree that the double ramp incarnation entirely got rid of ‘whiteknightism’ and its ilk. I can’t help thinking some of those kids just threw it at the last and just didn’t bother to try to answer any questions. Of course I can’t be sure though but I suspect I’m not alone in thinking that.

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    • Henry Lee says:

      There are some commercial WAM sites that do a better job of capturing the spirit of mainstream scenes , particularly in videos with multiple models where they have a chance of staying clean and really get into the competitive spirit.

      Ultimately, though, as TG notes above a commercial scene will always lack the psychological aspects of a mainstream equivalent. I know ths baffles of WAMmers who are solely interested in seeing women get messy, but hey, different strokes and all that.

      Liked by 1 person

      • yuck53 says:

        To be what’s baffling is the reasoning that if the woman is getting paid it alters the psychological aspect to the point where the women isn’t ‘reluctant’ while women on TV shows are.

        All the women have agreed and have their own motives for doing so. Why should them being paid make them less reluctant than any other motive they might have?

        The only difference I can really see is the fact the have a smaller audience in producer scenes but in those cases they know they have such a very specific audience that could put it up again. It really seems all this is in the imaginative capacity of the audience. I suspect that’s true in many cases.

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        • There are reluctant women in WAM videos. One of the main ones I can think of is Robyn from Splat! Babes, whose second video is no longer available for purchase but the preview is still up on YouTube. Note: Their 10 second intro still has men getting gunged in it, and it features a man in nothing but budgie smugglers fairly prominently, which I know could put some people off. Nevertheless, just look at how she dodges and cringes constantly. I don’t think you could get more of an “I don’t want to be gunged” sort of reaction from a gungee outside of a mainstream clip.

          Another example would be Helen from WamShorts, at least in her Crack the Code video. She’s not as eager to avoid the mess as Robyn, but she does cringe and sort of freeze up a bit. Nevertheless, the reluctance (or at least nervousness) is apparent.

          Of course, these are just two examples and I bring them up simply because of how blatant they are. It would be interesting to hear some feedback from models about how reluctant they are going in, and how much they’re told to suppress their feelings about the mess.

          Similarly, I don’t think every gungee in mainstream scenes is reluctant either. Oh sure, some clearly were (Frances from GYOB probably being the defining one in that regard), but Myleene Klass seemed to enjoy her gunging, for example. I would go into more detail about this, but I’m a bit physically and mentally drained at the moment.

          Basically though, I think the idea that the gungees in mainstream clips are hesitant whereas the ones in WAM videos aren’t is a load of over-generalised bollocks, and rating one kind of clip higher than the other based on it is folly. If you enjoy a shy, reluctant gungee then you’ll probably enjoy Helen, possibly even Robyn. The fact that these videos are made specifically to pander to fetishists shouldn’t matter, and if it does to you, please explain why.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Henry Lee says:

            The reluctance sometimes exhibited by WAM models strikes me as just someone reacting to an unpleasant job, it just doesn’t carry the same weight to me as a genuinely mainstream scene. It’s difficult to pin down exactly why, but saying “it’s just folly” is a “you’re doing the fetish wrong” kind of comment.

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            • yuck53 says:

              I just think we say ‘reluctance’ differently. I can’t qualify where the reluctance on mainstream clip comes from because it doesn’t seem especially rational. I suspect, on consideration, it might have more than a little to do with the fact if your in a ‘mainstream’ or let’s call it as it is public gunging you’re likely to have an audience including people who know you and you’ll be expected to answer to whereas in produced clips the clip in generally going to be seem by ‘weirdos’ who you don’t know and probably won’t lower you in their estimation (even if just for humour)for doing it.

              But it still isn’t that meaningful because I can’t help thinking that if one of those ‘private’ clip did fall into the hands of someone the star didn’t want to see it the result would likely be more embarrassing than for a public clip.

              But I did try to explain my personal feeling as to why I prefer public videos even though I can enjoy fetish ones a fair deal. In case you missed it I prefer not to think of videos as been made for my fetish but rather for our entertainment. Thinking of it as fetish material is more emotionally isolating.

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            • TG says:

              When it comes to celebrity gungings, you’re probably right VXS. When I think about it, there’s little difference between that Robyn clip and Jenny Hull squealing her way around the great house. Both are being paid to get messy, but to some extent are brought out of their comfort zones and genuinely react to it. That’s very enjoyable, and I should probably be less prejudiced about producer clips (however, I’m never going to fap off to a video with a near-naked muscle man in it).

              But civilian clips and non-celeb TV show participants have a certain something extra. Like Henry, I find it extremely hard to pin down what it is, but I wonder if it might be context – how the messy experience melds with wider emotions . I like recibida clips because the event is a rite of passage, I love the NHP Charlotte clip because “everybody at work’s watching”, and I enjoy WAM stories because they often explore these contexts at length. That’s something that producer vids can rarely capture – I think “That’s Unfair TV” came the closest, though I suspect it was more staged than it pretended to be.

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              • yuck53 says:

                Yeah, I’m suspect this is all correct. It may also we down to the way mainstream clips have gunge masters who really play with their ‘prey’.

                One of the most instructive things about suddenly have a huge supply of NESR clips available to view is that you can see how In Other Words plays out In context. You can see how Noel flits between being spectacularly mischievous and infuriatingly (and yet wonderfully) civil. You can see how audiences can flit between really wanting the gunge falling and going, no, no, no, don’t you dare! And they’ll actually respond from time to time.

                I suppose that’s part of a repartee with the gungee that producer clips seldom need to attempt to reproduce because, unlike in producer clips and painful as it is to think of sometimes in mainstream clips the ‘prey’ will get off. Producer clips will always end with a gunging or several dragged out gungings because people need to get their money’s worth and that changes the whole situation. The jeopardy can run down, the novelty can wear off the moment can be lost in the melee.

                Mainstream gunging have one gunging with one immediate result that could usually have gone another way.

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  5. pml89 says:

    TBF, GYOB couldn’t really exist in today’s environment. Since the advent of youtube and twitter, more people are aware than ever before of the seedier side of certain actions, like the WAM fetish. The upside is that people with the fetish have somewhere to go, at a much cheaper price, but it does mean the chances of another GYOB style show is remote.

    Like

    • Henry Lee says:

      I agree we’re unlikely to see a similar show again, but it comes down more to scheduling trends. Shows like GYOB were on the decline long before Jake Hammond and his ilk became more apparent.

      Liked by 3 people

      • I think to an extent gunge is undergoing a bit of a shift in terms of target audience anyway. For example, you’ve got people like Gunjee and Dave Benson-Phillips who run events where adults get gunged for an audience of other adults. Usually said audience is students. This is on top of recent trends for things like paint parties, foam parties and events that are heavily inspired by Holi.

        Basically what you’ve got is a bunch of people who grew up in the late 90s/early 2000s, probably grew up with shows like GYOB, L&K, MOM and Dick n Dom, who most likely never got a chance to be on those shows but remember them anyway; with what they view as expendable income. Offer them cheap drinks and the chance to do something crazy, fun and kinda nostalgic…

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        • Henry Lee says:

          While the “gunge nostalgia” thing has been a trend, I’d argue that even that is potentially on the wane. Gunjee seem to do way less events than they used to, and, with the notable exception of the Fringe, so does DBP. Back in Freshers 2008 he did 8 or 9 student gigs in a couple of weeks (I remember as I was in my second year hoping he’d come to my uni!). These days he maybe does 3 or 4 a year.

          Bear in mind, within the next couple of years we’ll have generations of kids going to uni who will never have GYOB (I fear for the future of the country etc etc).

          Like

    • thewhitelady316 says:

      I agree that the chances of another GYOB style show are remote, but I don’t really think it is related to the Internet opening the curtain on fetishes. Messy slapstick remains a stable on live action kids’ TV shows, and there are a billion things that have found fetish communities that remain commonplace in the media. Ellen still has her dunk tank. And it wouldn’t really work for the media to try to avoid accidentally appealing to sexual kinks. Trying to evade shoe fetishists enables foot fetishists. Not that liking shoes or feet is a bad thing to begin with, it’s just what some people like.

      Liked by 1 person

      • yuck53 says:

        “If it gets you going it gets you going!” That basically what Dave Gorman said when dissecting the WAM fetish.

        Ellen doesn’t use her Dunk Tank so much any more due to it passing out of favour during the drought. She doesn’t play Pie Face, often infuriatingly, a lot.

        I fear that the concern here is that it’s easier to take gunge out of programmes then to put it in. The fact that some people might be put off because a fetish exists might make it easier for them to find one more reason to take it out.

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        • thewhitelady316 says:

          A drought is a bit different from removing something or avoiding something because of fetishes. I really don’t think it’s a factor given the fact that pretty much anything and everything can be sexualised.

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          • yuck53 says:

            True, if I’m being more rational it does seem that such thoughts are just more like a manifestation of our own fetish anxieties and insecurities. They don’t do so many female gungings to avoid sexualizing women for our benefit. Rather paranoid really.

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